A: (Sobbing) Could I…?
Q: No, Esther. Just answer my question if you want to help me. Who was the girl?
A: Elaine Murray. Billy saw her and he said it.
Q: Okay. It’s all right. Then, Billy got mad?
A: Yes.
Q: What did he do?
A: They were cussing and they couldn’t see the car for a while.
Q: Did they chase after it?
A: Uh-huh. But they couldn’t find it.
Q: Where did they go?
A: Into Lookout Park.
Q: You went into the park?
A: It seems like it. It couldn’t be my imagination.
Q: No. You’re doing fine. Your memory is working better than it ever has. What happened next?
A: We…I saw the car.
Q: The car you were dragging with?
A: Are you sure that I’m not just remembering this because I want to get it over with and I’m not really remembering it?
Q: I think you are remembering it because you have come to the point where you can. I know you want to get it over with.
A: Is it all right if I smoke?
Q: No. In a few minutes I will let you smoke. Now, you saw the car, and then what?
A: I’ll tell you if I can remember. But I’m kind of blank.
Q: You’re doing fine. Let’s see how good your memory is.
A: It’s so hard because I know what they did. I know what I’m supposed to say and I want to make sure that I remember and I’m not just saying it…Something that I know.
Q: What you are supposed to say may not be true. I want you to remember what you remember.
A: Okay. We are driving in the park. You see, there are curves out there. Real sharp and woods all around. And Billy was mad, so we were going real fast and dust was just flying. I don’t know where we went. We drove for a long time. Then we went back and forth over the same area and we passed a place with a fireplace and some benches and then there was a small road off of that and when we went by the road I saw something.
Q: What did you see?
A: I don’t remember…I don’t like to remember, really.
Q: I know you don’t like to remember.
A: I really can’t…
Q: Did anything happen in the park?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: What was it…? You are shaking your head. What happened?
A: I didn’t see it.
Q: What didn’t you see?
A: I ran.
Q: What did you run from?
A: I…
Q: It’s okay. Here’s a tissue. We will protect you. You’re safe here.
A: I…
Q: Take a deep breath. Everything is fine.
A: (Crying)
Q: What made you run?
A: The murder.
Q: I couldn’t hear you.
A: The murderer.
Q: You saw the murder?
A: They were yelling.
Q: Who?
A: Everyone. They were going to beat him up.
Q: Beat who?
A: The boy from the other car.
Q: Why didn’t he drive away?
A: Because he had been insulted.
Q: He had been insulted?
A: His girlfriend had.
Q: What did they say?
A: Billy said nasty things.
Q: What did Billy say? Did he say prostitute? Do you recall?
A: And the boy said to shut up.
Q: The boy told Billy to shut up?
A: I can’t tell you whether it’s really what’s in my head.
Q: You keep on because your memory is telling you fine. We are very proud of you. You are a fine, strong woman.
A: So they started fighting.
Q: How did it start? The fight?
A: Billy said something and he said that is no way to talk about a lady. To insult her. And he was going to make him take it back and Billy socked him.
Q: Billy socked him?
A: And they were hitting him and they went and got the girl.
Q: Where was the girl?
A: In the car.
Q: What did you do?
A: I don’t feel well. Can we stop now?
Q: No, Esther. We will stop in a little bit.
A: I don’t remember.
Q: You do remember. We are so proud of you, Esther.
A: He had no face.
Q: Who?
A: Richie.
Q: Richie had no…? Take it easy. Do you want a handkerchief?
(Sobbing)
A: I ran. (Crying)
Q: Did you run when you saw Richie’s face? You are shaking your head yes. Where was the girl?
A: They were dragging her into the grass. That’s all I know. I ran away.
Q: Did you fall while you were running?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: While you were running, did you drop anything or lose anything?
A: My purse. My glasses fell out.
Q: After you fell and got up, where did you run?
A: Down to the road.
Q: Did you…were you confronted by dogs?
A: I got in the yard and they chased…chased me. I didn’t see them at first, then they jumped at me.
Q: How did you get away?
A: They were tied. On a leash.
Q: Okay, so you got away from the dogs. Then where did you go?
A: Onto the road. I started to walk home.
Q: How did you get home?
A: I am too wide awake with this stuff now. I can’t remember what I’m supposed to say.
Q: I don’t want what you are supposed to say. I want what you remember.
A: ’Cause I know what I’m supposed to say and, well, I am telling you the truth. I am not making it up.
Q: I know, Esther. Shut your eyes for a minute. Just relax. In a minute I will give you some more medicine.
DR. HOLLANDER: How did you get home?
A: Bobby and Billy and…They stopped the car.
Q: They got you in a car?
A: I was walking on the street and they stopped. They came up behind me and said to get in.
Q: Who was driving?
A: Bobby, I think.
Q: Where was Billy?
A: In the back, holding a girl.
Q: Elaine?
A: Yes.
Q: Was she all right?
A: She wasn’t dead. She was all right.
Q: How did you know?
A: She was sitting up and looking at me, but he was holding her.
Q: How did he hold her?
A: By her arms and around her shoulders. She looked asleep almost.
Q: Dazed?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did they go with her?
A: I don’t know. They took me home. They dumped me off in the middle of the street and drove away.
Q: They didn’t say anything to you?
A: No. Maybe that’s why I didn’t remember it the next day when I saw it in the papers.
Q: What do you mean?
A: I saw about Richie being killed, but I never saw the boy close, so I decided it couldn’t have been and I forgot about it. I was pretty drunk, too.
Q: Why are you crying?
A: I am tired.
Q: Do you think that what we talked about was all you can remember?
A: I don’t know.
Q: But you remember seeing the boy murdered?
A: No, I didn’t see that.
Q: Didn’t you say that you saw the fight?
A: No, no, I didn’t know there was a murder, until later. I didn’t know what happened. I thought they beat him up like they usually did.
Q: Didn’t you say you saw Richie’s face?
A: I saw it later.
Q: Did they ever talk to you, Bobby and Billy, after that? Threaten you?
A: Well, you know, you hung together. You didn’t tell. And then, I didn’t want to go to a home. You know, there was that robbery thing at the miniature golf and if I got in trouble again the judge said he would have to send me to a home.
Q: After that night did you ever see Elaine Murray again?
A: No. I hardly saw Billy or Bobby, either.
Q: Not even in school?
A: They had a car accident in…right after New Years and they was in the hospital. Then I stopped hanging around with the Cobras and stayed home more. They almost didn’t graduate, I remember. But I guess the school just wanted to get rid of them.
ROY SHINDLER: When did you run away?
A: From the hill?
Q: Yes.
A: I think when they were kicking the boy and then they ran after the girl. It’s confused in my mind, because it was so fast.
DR. HOLLANDER: You are remembering very well today.
A: But I didn’t remember before. Honest I didn’t.
Q: I am sure you didn’t.
A: Why? (Crying)