'Certainly we could.'
'So now, about the immortal likewise: if it's granted us that it must also be imperishable, then soul, besides being immortal, would 10 also be imperishable; but if not, another argument would be needed.' d
'But there's no need of one, on that score at least. Because it could hardly be that anything else wouldn't admit destruction if the immortal, being everlasting, is going to admit destruction.'
'Well God anyway,' said Socrates, 'and the form of life itself, and 5 anything else immortal there may be, never perish, as would, I think, be agreed by everyone.'
'Why yes, to be sure; by all men and still more, I imagine, by gods.'
'Then, given that the immortal is also indestructible,76 wouldn't e soul, if it proves to be immortal, be imperishable as well?'
'It absolutely must be imperishable.'
'Then when death attacks a man, his mortal part, it seems, dies; 5 whereas the immortal part gets out of the way of death, departs, and goes away intact and undestroyed.'
'It appears so.'
'Beyond all doubt then, Cebes, soul is immortal and imperishable, and our souls really will exist in Hades.' 107
'Well, Socrates, for my part I've no further objection, nor can I doubt the arguments at any point. But if Simmias here or anyone else has anything to say, he'd better not keep silent; as I know of no future occasion to which anyone wanting to speak or hear about 5 such things could put it off.'
'Well no,' said Simmias; 'nor have I any further ground for doubt myself, as far as the arguments go; though in view of the size of the subject under discussion, and having a low regard for human weakness, b I'm bound to retain some doubt in my mind about what's been said.'
'Not only that, Simmias,' said Socrates; 'what you say is right, so the initial hypotheses, even if they're acceptable to you people, 5 should still be examined more clearly: if you analyse them adequately, you will, I believe, follow the argument to the furthest point to which man can follow it up; and if you get that clear,77 you'll seek nothing further.'
'What you say is true.' 10
'But this much it's fair to keep in mind, friends: if a soul is c
immortal, then it needs care, not only for the sake of this time in which what we call "life" lasts, but for the whole of time; and if 5 anyone is going to neglect it, now the risk would seem fearful. Because if death were a separation from everything, it would be a godsend for the wicked, when they died, to be separated at once from the body and from their own wickedness along with the soul; but since, d in fact, it is evidently immortal, there would be no other refuge from ills or salvation for it, except to become as good and wise as possible. For the soul enters Hades taking nothing else but its education and nurture, which are, indeed, said to do the greatest 5 benefit or harm to the one who has died, at the very outset of his journey yonder.
'Now it is said that when each man has died, the spirit allotted to each while he was living proceeds to bring him to a certain place, where those gathered must submit to judgement, and then e journey to Hades with the guide appointed to conduct those in this world to the next; and when they have experienced there the things they must, and stayed there for the time required, another guide conveys them back here during many long cycles of time. So the journey is not as Aeschylus' Telephus describes it: he says it is a 108 simple path that leads to Hades, but to me it seems to be neither simple nor single. For then there would be no need of guides; since no one, surely, could lose the way anywhere, if there were only a single road. But in fact it probably has many forkings and branchings; 5 I speak from the evidence of the rites78 and observances followed here. Now the wise and well-ordered soul follows along, and is not unfamiliar with what befalls it; but the soul in a state of desire for the body, as I said earlier, flutters around it for a long time, and around b the region of the seen,79 and after much resistance and many sufferings it goes along, brought by force and against its will by the appointed spirit. And on arriving where the others have gone, if the soul is unpurifled and has commited any such act as engaging in 5 wrongful killings, or performing such other deeds as may be akin to those and the work of kindred souls, everyone shuns and turns aside from it, and is unwilling to become its travelling companion or c guide; but it wanders by itself in a state of utter confusion, till certain periods of time have elapsed, and when these have passed,
it is taken perforce into the dwelling meet for it; but the soul that has passed through life with purity and moderation finds gods for travelling companions and guides, and each inhabits the region that 5 befits it.
'Now there are many wondrous regions in the earth, and the earth itself is of neither the nature nor the size supposed by those who usually describe it, as someone has convinced me.'
Here Simmias said: 'What do you mean by that, Socrates? I've d heard many things about the earth too, but not these that convince you;80 so I'd be glad to hear them.'
'Well, Simmias, I don't think the skill of Glaucus is needed to relate what they are; although to prove them true does seem to me 5 too hard for the skill of Glaucus—I probably couldn't do it myself, and besides, even if I knew how to, I think the life left me, Simmias, doesn't suffice for the length of the argument. Still, nothing prevents me from telling of what I've been convinced the earth is like in e shape, and of its regions.'
'Well, even that is enough,' said Simmias.
'First then, I've been convinced that if it is round and in the centre of the heaven, it needs neither air nor any other such force to 5 prevent its falling, but the uniformity of the heaven in every direction 109 with itself is enough to support it, together with the equilibrium of the earth itself; because a thing in equilibrium placed in the middle of something uniform will be unable to incline either more or less in 5 any direction, but being in a uniform state it will remain without incline. So that's the first thing of which I've been convinced.'
'And rightly so,' said Simmias.
'And next, that it is of vast size, and that we who dwell between the Phasis River and the Pillars of Heracles inhabit only a small part b of it, living around the sea like ants or frogs around a marsh, and that there are many others living elsewhere in many such places. For there are many hollows all over the earth, varying in their 5 shapes and sizes, into which water and mist and air have flowed together; and the earth itself is set in the heaven, a pure thing in pure surroundings, in which the stars are situated, and which most of those who usually describe such things name "aether"; it's from this c that these elements are the dregs, and continually flow together into
the hollows of the earth. Now we ourselves are unaware that we live in its hollows, and think we live above the earth-just as if 5 someone living at the bottom of the ocean were to think he lived above the sea, and seeing the sun and the stars through the water, were to imagine that the sea was heaven, and yet through slowness d and weakness had never reached the surface of the sea, nor emerged, stuck his head up out of the sea into this region here, and seen how much purer and fairer it really is than their world, nor had heard 5 this from anyone else who had seen it. Now this is just what has happened to us: living in some hollow of the earth, we think we live above it, and we call the air "heaven", as if this were heaven and the stars moved through it; whereas the truth is just the same-because e of our weakness and slowness, we are unable to pass through to the summit of the air; for were anyone to go to its surface, or gain wings and fly aloft, he would stick his head up and see—just as here the 5 fishes of the sea stick their heads up and see the things here, so he would see the things up there; and if his nature were able to bear the vision, he would realize that this is the true heaven, the genuine 110 light, and the true earth. For this earth of ours, and its stones and all the region here, are corrupted and eaten away, as are things in the sea by the brine; nor does anything worth mentioning grow in the 5 sea, and practically nothing is perfect, but there are eroded rocks and sand and unimaginable mud and mire, wherever there is earth as well, and things are in no way worthy to be compared with the beauties in our world. But those objects in their turn would be seen to surpass the things in our world by a far greater measure still; b indeed, if it is proper to tell a tale, it's worth hearing, Simmias, what the things upon the earth and beneath the heaven are actually like.'