Lena: It’s awful and distressing. But as you proved with Bridesmaids, the conventional wisdom is often wrong: Women are going to come to movies. And obviously, black people and black women want to see strong characters who reflect them on television, too. And the industry is lagging way behind on what people’s needs are. You have much more of a relationship to the financial and business angle of the industry, because I work at HBO, where there are no ads and I can do whatever I want. But you’ve had the experience of having to satisfy a studio, a network, do test screenings. You understand the machinations behind it.
Judd: I remember working on a black cop movie.
Lena: Which one?
Judd: I shouldn’t say because of the story I’m about to tell. But there was a black character—a gigantic star—and in the movie, he had a romance with another black actress. And I noticed that they never kissed in the movie. I asked about this and the producer said to me, “Yeah. Internationally, people don’t like to see black people kiss.” And you could tell that the black star understood that as well. They were all pandering to cultural prejudices or what they thought were cultural prejudices. Which was bullshit, but my jaw still dropped.
Lena: That is one of the most upsetting things I have ever heard.
Judd: Yeah, and if you think about it, it’s very real. It’s all of those prejudices—like people say comedies don’t work in Asia. So you’re saying that Asian people don’t laugh, they only want giant robots? It’s all driven by money, ultimately.
Lena: Because of what HBO’s value system is, I feel like I’ve been able to avoid the part of the job where those awful truths are revealed to me.
Judd: Has it ever hit you that, in terms of the nightmare of television and development, you haven’t had to suffer?
Lena: I think about that all the time. Every time I meet someone who is going through the network TV process. They seem so beaten down. And your stories about your own career when you were younger—I have all these moments where I’m like, I am never allowed to complain about anything ever in my life because of how easy I’ve had it.
Judd: But it’s also, I think, one of the main benefits of your show. You are not reacting from the place of someone who has been beaten up and, as a result, is flinching and making choices based on having been beaten up on other projects. Your lack of history is what makes the show feel pure.
Lena: I feel so lucky because I’ve never had to take a note that I didn’t agree with. I’ve never felt like my vision has been diluted. And that’s a crazy thing to be able to claim. Judd, I have a question I have always wanted to ask you, but because this recorder is turned on, I feel emboldened to do so. Do you think people are scared of you?
Judd: Scared of me?
Lena: Yeah.
Judd: I, uh, I don’t know. David Milch said something to me once, which I’d never considered before: He said executives don’t want to give notes and don’t want to stand behind their opinions. Executives want you to have enough power or reputation so that if you screw up, it’s your screwup, not theirs. The whole thing is inverted. Executives are looking for ways to not be responsible. And when you achieve a certain level of success, you’ll notice that some executives disappear because they have deniability about the process. “Of course I trusted Judd, he’s had enough success that I should let him do what he wants to do.” It’s actually harder for them to work with young people, because then they have to be responsible.
Lena: That’s so interesting.
Judd: As soon as I made people money, some people went away, but I never felt anyone being afraid of me. It was more like, “Oh, everything he does seems pretty solid. I’m going to let him do his thing.” Everybody told me you get five bombs before you go out of business. You can withstand five. Your budget will get lower every time you have a bomb. If you have three bombs in a row, then your budget’s going to drop to like eight million dollars. At five, you’re done.
Lena: Five bombs in a row?
Judd: Five bombs in a row, and you’re done.
Lena: Have you had five bombs in a row?
Judd: I’ve had things that are a wash. Nothing I’ve done has been a bomb. At the end of the day some of the more difficult movies, like Funny People, probably will lose a little money, but not a lot. Sometimes you make things and, the whole time, you’re aware that it might not make money, and yet it’s what you should be making at this moment in time and you hope it will connect in a big way because it is unique and personal. You have to try to do things that are more challenging to the audience. Those often become the biggest hits. Sometimes they don’t make a ton of money. I mean, you have to take your swings. As you have, with Girls. Do you think much about what you want to do, beyond the show?
Lena: I want to make more movies because it’s something I love doing. I love the format. But TV is the best. When we first started, James L. Brooks said to me, “If a TV show is working, it’s the best job you’ll ever have.” And he was totally right. But there are stories I want to tell that aren’t serialized stories. Let’s see. I also want to write a novel. That’s something I have always wanted to do and then, at a certain point, kind of thought to myself, Well, that’s going to go by the wayside….It’s funny when you want to dabble in new things, and you must feel this sometimes, you get this realization: Oh, there are people who have spent their whole lives figuring out how to do this, and the thing I make will never be equivalent to what they’re doing. Are there any genres that you want to explore, that don’t seem like a natural fit for you?
Judd: I guess I’d like to experiment with having more drama and a little less comedy in some films. But I don’t sit around thinking, I want to make a science fiction movie or a period drama. It never occurs to me because I’m so confused by modern life already that I never feel satisfied that I have figured anything out. I don’t need a metaphor for what I do.
Lena: What do you think about the trend of comedians being obsessed with the idea of becoming dramatic actors? I was just rewatching a Joan Rivers documentary, and in it, she’s crying because she says no one’s ever going to take her seriously as an actress and being a comedian was just a thing to do. Do you relate to that?
Judd: I think comedians are interesting when they have other facets. Sometimes I feel like a goofball—I just feel dumb and want to process all my thoughts through humor. Every once in a while, it’s a way to make things less painful. But then you begin to feel like you’re always trying to filter life through funny and you wonder: Is this insincere on some level? Sometimes I feel like I’m making jokes because I’m uncomfortable with my own thoughts and opinions. I feel this need to make it entertaining for you. I think that’s one of the reasons why so many comedians want to do dramatic acting. At some point, you get the urge to drop the cover and just be real.
Lena: It’s less so now, but sometimes, when I had a serious thought, I would almost say it in a goofy way—like, I’d take on a weird voice so I’d be like (in a weird voice), “You know, I think women have to be able to get free access to abortions!” It was this strange defense mechanism. But as I’ve become more confident, I’m more comfortable having a serious thought and owning it as a serious thought.
Judd: When you were in college or when you were making Tiny Furniture, did you have any thoughts about becoming a public person?